If you`ve done nothing wrong...

[Laukev7]

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/done+n ... story.html

Canadian point of view on the surveillance state, on the Jenny Paton case in the UK, and how the Vancouver Olympics is being used as an excuse to take steps in that direction.

A noteworthy excerpt:

Sociologist David Lyons of Queen's University has a good line on this. He said surveillance efforts are no longer being based on "insurable risks" -- where risk was assessed on historical precedent -- but have shifted to "incalculable risks" -- those unimaginable acts of terrorism like 9-11 that government maintains can be countered only by increased security and surveillance.

[Aloone_Jonez]

I mostly agree with the sentiment but it does assume that what Paton was doing isn't wrong and the council are the only ones at fault.

From the councils point of view, Jenny has committed fraud by lying to them about where she lives so she can send her children to the school she wants them to go to as opposed to the school in her catchment are.

The question I prefer to ask is whether the means used to perform the investigation were justified.

If Paton had been committing benefit fraud then I would have probably been more inclined to take the authority's side but lying about where you live just to get your kids into a better school ? WTF?

Even if she is guilty of fraud, then surely there are more important things for the council to spend their money on than this.

The problem with this legislation seems to be a weakening of the separation of powers, if the council has to contact some independent body who would conduct the investigation, if they believed it's justified then this probably would have never happened.

I'm all for covert surveillance of benefit fraud and even the idea that you should be able to report your neighbour, which some see as Stalinist, but I don't think it's an economically viable way of investigating petty crime.

As far as CCTV is concerned, I still hold the view that if the cameras are in public places then it's no big deal. My biggest criticism about CCTV in this country is that it isn't used effectively enough and that AI systems such as facial recognition is not being used enough.

[Laukev7]

What is this school catchment about? You're not allowed to choose which school you can send your children to? Is this a UK or a local thing?

[Aloone_Jonez]

It's a UK thing, at least in England anyway, I don't know about Wales or Scotland.

The idea is that each area has its own local school where the parents are supposed to send their children. It's supposed to be the most efficient way of managing resources as well as being environmentally friendly: lower transport costs and CO2 emissions.

The trouble is that more wealthy areas tend to have better schools because of the way the council tax system works the people in a certain area pay for their school. Then there's the problem that children from poorer backgrounds tend to be more disruptive and unruly.

I disagree with it myself, parents should be able to send their children to the school of their choice. hopefully competitive forces will start to kick-in; poor schools will get less pupils and resources so will close down, good schools will do much better.

[Laukev7]

This doesn't justify in any reasonable way how Paton was treated.

What the council did and what you described would be considered criminal harassment here, an indictable offence for which you can get a jail sentence up to ten years.

EDIT: We have school zones here, but you can enroll your child to a non-school zone with a waiver form.

[Aloone_Jonez]

I agree it doesn't justify the way she was treated but so say Paton had done nothing wrong is an oversimplification.

[Laukev7]

What, cheating on a school form? People do that here and it's considered a minor offence.

[worker201]

We have school districts in the US, too.  Schools are funded by property tax, which creates a hierarchy of financial merit - if you pay more tax, your kid gets to go to a better school.  It's probably one of the main roadblocks to equal opportunity in this country - unequal opportunity starts before a child can even read.  There's no waivers for public schools.  Your child's name shows up on the roll at the school for your area, and if s/he doesn't show up, s/he is truant.  Private school kids can get a waiver.

But none of that has anything to do with the heart of the matter.  The relevant quote Laukev posted is what this article is really about.  And I agree, the notion that unimaginable scenarios can be systematically prevented is a farce.

[Aloone_Jonez]

What, cheating on a school form? People do that here and it's considered a minor offence.

I agree.

I suppose this goes back to the law vs the spirit of the law I keep ranting on about.

[American Bastard]

But lets not forget, it typically isnt up to the court todecide etween spirit and letter of law. That is part of the discretion police officers are supposed to exercise.

If at 2am, you roll through a stop sign in a deserted and empty part of town, the cop is supposed to risk asses it. Now, if he's looking for drunks, he will pul that car anyway. Normally, if the person isnt drunk, they go with a simple, please drive more safely.

I think, the spirit versus letter is exactly where this lies. However, she did lie on her form, and could have cost people in the catchment area to not have a place. It's not a big deal at face value. But, if you think about it, it becomes pretty far reaching. Is it a selfish act? Of course it is. But what parent isnt selfish when considering thier childrens education?

Let's say 200 people did that. If they get approved, then that is 200 places in that school that locals don't have, and are forced to look outside thier own areas. that means mor emoney spent to process, because outside catchment means more processing. More processing means more people, more mail, more paper and more time on the decision board. So, if it was just her we're looking at pennies. But, we all know it isn't just her, and now we are talking about hundreds of thousands of pounds wasted that could have been used in a lower school to help it out. I find the school system here VERY socialist in it's economics ad assignments.

Do I blame her? Certainly not. o I think it is a waste of time and resources how they investigated it? Deffinately. I would think a simple investigator who checked her billing adresses and bank adresses would have sufficed and certainly provided enough evidence to prove fraud. The Councils in the UK are becoming absurd in thier application of Anti-Terror laws in order to investigate relatively small social infractions...this needs to stop. And, the police here need to put more effort into reporting crime and less effort into disqualifying it.

[Laukev7]

IMO, school boards should be abolished altogether. They did it in Finland, and it worked very well for them. There was a report about this in the JdM newspaper, and all the bureaucracy and money they cost. I'm talking about the school boards in Quebec, but I'm sure the system in England and the district system in the US need to be replaced as well.

[Aloone_Jonez]

Update: she took the council to court and won.
http://www.ukwirednews.com/news.php/79156-Poole-council-loses-school-catchment-spying-tribunal

Hopefully this will stop this from happening in the future.

[Calum]

ideally if the social conditions could be levelled a bit then there would be less incentive for a parent to cheat the school system in the first place. Really she should have gone through the proper channels if she wanted to get her child into a different school, but in reality, what channels are actually open to her? The only real way of ensuring this would be to literally move house, with her whole family, into her chosen catchment area, and, thereby end up paying the correct amount of council tax and so on, except that the council tax system is in severe need of revision as well.

Actually if government put their efforts into revising the basic administrative systems the country runs on, rather than PR and backbiting, then perhaps people would feel a lot less of a need to try and cheat the systems that are in place.

[kintaro]

Central management of education has been a disaster since the idea went around the world. It places decision making in the least capable and least informed eyes possible. Because of this, it will always be a disaster, and the only social condition that can be changed to accept it is for people to just accept disasters and do nothing about them leaving the world a shambles.

[Calum]

or reform and a takeup of individual responsibility would be an alternative solution.

When i hear people saying that lying down and accepting stuff is the only solution, it makes me want to point out that these people have allowed themselves to be brainwashed by big businesses, governments etc. Basically anybody that wants to continue receiving your money or your vote will spend all their time trying to convince you that it's easier and safer for you to just accept your situation, don't rock the boat.

Clearly if something needs changing, that's actually not the best plan. Most people seem to allow themselves to waste all their energy on pointless drivel, though, that when it comes to putting their energy into taking responsibiity for their own society, they kid themselves they have no real power, when in actual fact it's apathy, caused by a fear they can't even admit to themselves, that means that nothing ever changes.

We could all change the world for the better overnight if we all worked together (as a species), but this will never happenin our lifetime, because childish selfishness and willful division, all encouraged by the powers that be (through distractions like the war on terror or the global recession) seem easier to the majority, it's like a child grabbing the nearest toy.

Ironically, real education's what's sorely needed.