Bin Laden tape blames US for global warming

[Aloone_Jonez]

this is 100% not what i said.

WHat did you mean then?

I'm sick of having to endlessly re-explain everything, is this some sort of tactic to make your opponent bored and give up? if so it's worked. Again, no wonder there's no real debate going on here, the few people left are more interested in point scoring (by obfuscation) than in real discussion.

Well if you don't word your posts in a clear and precise manner, of course you're going to have to re-explain yourself.

I'm sick of your sheer fucking arrogance. Why is it that it's always the other person's fault never your own or even a combination of both?

You go round accusing everyone on the MES of having some sort of problem, like you're the victim, when the truth is they're just pissed off with your arrogant attitude.  Now I've been quite patient with you up to this point but it's finally run out.

I admit that I'm not perfect and occasionally fuck up, why can't you? You almost never admit you're wrong. If someone misunderstands your posts, they always have malicious intent, could it be that you didn't make yourself clear in the first place? No, you'd never make such an error, it's got to be them twisting your words! Could it be that they've made a genuine mistake? No, they've got it in for you so they're deliberately misinterpretting you!

So tell me what you really meant in your previous post or shut the fuck up.

[kintaro]

If what Calum says is true, that the US is responsible for more emmisions I do wonder what the period is for this. This is because CARBON DECAYS. The carbon emmited 100 years ago IS NOT THERE ANYMORE. If what Calum says is not true, I don't care. Because the true answer is irrelevant.

Also, historically we were not aware of this problems. Estimates are probably far off, ice cores won't really show perfect results either. Ultimately statistics and ice cores that have made contact with only a small amount of atmospheres are abstractions of the impossible problem of understanding history perfectly. Nobody knows how many men Xerxes really threw at Leonidas in the battle of his death - it is described as "thousands and thousands." Nobody counted the corpses, and Xerxes didn't have a reliable census.

America was easily producing the most emissions during the cold war. Most of that carbon has decayed, but then there is its current emissions on top of it. In this sense, America put a shitload up there. Yet that was when they did not know this was causing a problem. So Calum is right but I think his target of blame is pretty meaningless given the fact that ultimately this is nobodies intentional error but an accident on a retarded scale.

Americans are the ones who have had the currency peg from China. I doubt Bush had any problems with this because it kept goods cheap for Americans no matter how much the Fed printed to fund two wars and a bloated internal Government gone mad on nannying and national security. China would print Yuan's on a massive scale specifically to flood American foreign exchange markets. This is ending, slowly, but China subsidized American consumption to beat everyone else.

America has little manafucturing and mostly uses energy to enjoy these goods. China builds them but they were doing it primarily for Americans with this currency arrangement - they had priority access to Chinese money. So, American consumption may have played a large part.

My conclusions:
* Anything from 30-15 years ago is irrelevant because carbon decays.
* America was bribed out of producing anything by China.
* China poses the biggest long term threat and various schemes are yet to provide meaningful cuts.

Another interesting one is where China gets a huge amount of its coal: Australia.

Personally, I think to solve this problem we simply need to use every last fucking bit of coal on the planet in a production binge where we build as many alternative energy sources including non-renewables that are carbon free to solve climate change.

[Calum]

The carbon emmited 100 years ago IS NOT THERE ANYMORE.

we're still living with the effects of this pollution today, flooded fields, ozone layer holes etc etc.

I don't have the time for this crap, i've got better things to do than read garbage, then be insulted.

[Aloone_Jonez]

Don't want to get insulted Calum?

Fine, then don't go round accusing people who've honestly misunderstood you, of point scoring  by obfuscation.

As I said above, change the "I'm the always victim, I'm never to blame" attitude or get the fuck out.

[kintaro]

Ozone layer holes? More like your understanding of fluid dynamics has holes.

[Calum]

Don't want to get insulted Calum?

i don't care, if it helps you to insult me, then go for it.

Fine, then don't go round accusing people who've honestly misunderstood you, of point scoring  by obfuscation.

"oh, it was an honest mistake. have pity on me, i didn't know any better." change the record. why don't you grow up and take responsibility for your words and actions? you live in the real world just like the rest of us. If you are genuinely interested in the subject (any subject) then go and do some research and then come back and refute what i said, that's my advice, whether you want it or not, but i shouldn't have to spell that out for you, should i? having said that, this is "heated debates" so if i want to blow off steam, and you want to blow off steam then who cares? And if that's the case, then wtf are you doing telling me to "get the fuck out" as you do here? -

As I said above, change the "I'm the always victim, I'm never to blame" attitude or get the fuck out.

why don't you get the fuck out if you've got yourself in such a snit? that's what i did at the MES, it seems to have worked, for the main part. A shame that some of the old dogma has followed me here.

[Aloone_Jonez]

All right I admit I shouldn't have lost my temper. I'll make one last attempt at getting my point across.

I don't understand what your problem is with me?

My only problem with you is that when a misunderstanding occurs you always blame the other party. This is what I've seen you do at the MES, here and is why other people over there got annoyed with you.

My point is that when person A misunderstands person B, it's normally not deliberate, it's possible that they didn't read B's post properly but it could've easily because A's post was ambiguous and B's interpretation differs from A's intended meaning.

[Calum]

well to answer your question directly, i haven't got a problem with you.

i do have a problem with any discursive style that undermines direct, frank, free and honest discussion. That doesn't mean i think disruptive discussers should be banned or anything stupid like that, i think if people want to try to derail the discussion, then that too is their right, under freedom of speech, but it still gets no respect from me.

And the reason i have a lot less tolerance than apparently you do for people who "didn't understand", is because the reason they have not understood is usually that they have run off half (if that) cocked, without making any effort to actually find out about the matter at hand. We've all done it. Nobody's perfect, but if i see it, i will continue to point it out, and rather than interpreting it as a personal attack, or overreacting in some other way, it'd make sense for that person to just have a quick check to see if they agree that they could have done a bit more thinking before throwing their fingers at the keyboard.

Freedom of speech gives every discussor an inherent responsibility, basically every one of us is accountable for our words. That doesn't mean we can't change our minds, in fact if none of us changed our minds, forums like this would be pointless (though this is arguably the case right now). What it does mean is that if you said something, you would admit to it, and if you no longer agreed with it, you'd know why. And it also means that when saying something, you are aware of what it means, in context.

This is why X11's behaviour (we still call him kintaro now i think?) is so perplexing to me. he's clearly intelligent and unique, and in my opinion a genuine good guy, and yet he seems to have had uncountable bursts of not taking any responsibility for the garbage he sometimes pours out online, and often then recants very shortly afterwards. No offence intended john, just using you as an example.

does this answer your question? While i agree there is a considerable onus on someone to explain what they mean adequately, there is also an onus on the recipient of an explanation to at least try and see it from the other person's point of view instead of just ranting and raving and spewing meaningless insults all over the place. Again, not a specific example here, however there's much that you could take issue with in what i have just said, but only if you decide to assume that it's all just me blaming you, which, in fact, it isn't.

See the bigger picture.

[kintaro]

Bursts of anger? Fucking hell, I might be 23 but there isn't even hair on my balls yet. Runs the family actually, puberty tends to run till a Tate is 30.